Reusable Sewage Startup Steps In Where Govt's Fail

Clive: 0:06

So many of us simply aren't aware about what happens to our sewage after we flush the toilet. You go to the toilet you do your business, you do your one, you do your number two, flush the toilet and magically everything just disappears. Right? That's most people's experience with, wastewater. if it's not that the experience is, oh my toilet's blocked, it's smelly. I gotta call a plumber and I gotta take care of it. That's most of our experience with wastewater. What most people don't realize is that simply going to the toilet and doing your business and having the wastewater magically disappear, is not something that most of the world actually has access to.

Amir: 0:50

Clive, I just wanna make sure that I've heard it right. The majority of people on the planet are still living How it used to be where there's, isn't any waste water treatment or, nothing really advanced we're talking billions about billions of people.

Clive: 1:08

We're looking at somewhere of 70 to 80% of the world is not treating its wastewater. We're talking billions of people. Yes, we really are. India you have the largest population in the world that does open defecation cause there's no toilets. So people go into the bush and they just shit in the bushes. Do they want to shit in the bushes? No. Do they have a choice? No. So what do they do? They shit to the bushes. just adapt. These people are at risk, especially women it's a very, uh, uncompromising position to be in.

Amir: 1:33

Got it, clive Lipchin, thank you coming onto The Dejargonizer

Clive: 1:37

great to be here. Thank you.

Amir: 1:39

To me it feels like there is, a really clear couple of fundamental things building blocks, of way we live now, which is law and order sanitation. You and I are both from South Africa where we see this. Talk to us about Laguna innovation, what is, the problem with wastewater treatment as it is now. Because on your website, laguna innovation.com,your mission, your big thing says rethinking wastewater treatment. So what needs rethinking

Clive: 2:10

One of the first large scale infrastructure projects that were done, the dawn of the Industrial Revolution around the 17, 18 hundreds, in cities like London, and Paris was to put in sewer networks what, were people doing in those places before? They were simply collecting their sewage and dumping it directly into the streets. people were getting sick, people were dying and so one of the first thing that the city planners began to think about is we have to collect the sewage, it has to go somewhere. Now what they did is they built sewer networks, And some of those networks are still being used today, but those networks were only designed to collect sewage, not to treat it. all of that sewage was collected. In other words, it wasn't flowing down the streets anymore. So that was a good thing. People weren't getting sick But all of that sewage was being dumped in the case of London into the Thames, or in the case of Paris, into the Seine. so the river systems were massively polluted. Wastewater treatment was the next stage. It wasn't just about let's collect sewage. But we've gotta treat it so that we're not polluting these waterways. Because that sewage entering waterways once it contaminates drinking water supply causes disease. and so solving sanitation issues, right? Solving these sewage issues is not just, oh we don't want that dirty water getting into our rivers. We don't want to be causing disease or spreading disease. That's what we are addressing here at Laguna Innovation. The 70, 80% of the world that doesn't simply have the ability to have their sewage magically disappear.

Amir: 3:37

How difficult is it to build this infrastructure, plan it to implement it, to have it, managed.

Clive: 3:42

remember this is not just domestic sewage. You need this kind of collection for factories as well, right? Any activity that has water as an input, which is pretty much everything will produce sewage. So anything that is going to be producing sewage must be connected to a network, to a grid. So those are the pipes that you're talking about, right? And all those pipes have to run underground, which means when you're planning cities, you've gotta think where are those pipes gonna be? Water flows via gravity. So it's not just pipes, it's pumping stations, reservoirs, it's a whole infrastructure that has to be planned and has to be effectively managed. Then that sewage has to go somewhere. And then we're talking about the wastewater treatment facilities, but these facilities are large. They cannot be located near cities because they smell. It's expensive to build. And like any infrastructure, you also have to have the money for operational maintenance.

Amir: 4:36

It's absolutely huge. it probably also relies on a couple of arms of government working together, right?

Clive: 4:42

The biggest problem, it's not the technology, never is, the governance. It's politics at the end of the day, this can be done only if there's effective governance. And if you look at where sewage and sanitation is well managed, you're looking at places where governance functions effectively, without a good political, setup. None of this stuff works

Amir: 5:02

Wow. as you said, the technology exists. I guess it takes the political will and the financing that doesn't exist everywhere

Clive: 5:10

exactly. Take Addis Ababa for example. that's a city of around roughly 5 million people. Only 5% of Addis Ababa is connected to a sewer grid. 5% of 5 million. Now, how am I supposed to provide sewage treatment to 5 million people in that city if there isn't a government that I can talk to and engage, and that government has to raise finances Another real problem is that these cities grow organically. So actually it is even more expensive because where do I lay pipes when buildings and roads and bridges have already been built?

Amir: 5:44

Talk to us about Laguna innovation, and where your mission is.

Clive: 5:49

We're solving a sanitation problem, by treating sewage. So there's less environmental pollution, there's less, public health, impacts, but we're treating it on site and giving that water back to people on site a highly valued source of water for irrigation. so we're linking wastewater treatments to food security because in most of the developing world, people dealing with agriculture even within cities community gardens, small farming, small holders. Yeah, Small holders how most of the world's agriculture is conducted. Most of the world's food is still grown at a very small and a very localized scale, at an individual family level. And those people need water for irrigation. And that's what we can do. We can take that sewage, collect it, at a localized level and give it back to the, community, as a source of water for food production.

Amir: 6:38

Can you describe the machine? We're not technical people and not a technical audience, but give us as technical as possible and I'll work with you visualize those.

Clive: 6:47

The way that we've engineered the system, is to do what a large scale facility does, but in miniature. We want to do this biologically. We want to do this with no chemicals, and we wanna do it in the most, energy efficient way. And so the best way to do that is actually to mimic nature or what, people talk about as nature-based solutions. we have algae, that grow on our system, they algae treat the wastewater by feeding on the organic matter. Now, how do we do that?

Amir: 7:14

Clive, sorry. before we get into the algae and where it sits and all that, this is a big box. It's the size of, guess a container, a container,

Clive: 7:23

You want the dimensions. Got it. Okay. the dimensions of the box, so to speak, depends on how much sewage you treat. a small system, is something like, two meters by three meters,

Amir: 7:33

out of iron. corrugated iron.

Clive: 7:35

no, no, This thing needs to be lightweight. Why? Because we bring it in on the back of a truck. weighs about 700 kilograms one in all.

Amir: 7:44

And I see that on the roof there are a couple of, of solar panels,

Clive: 7:49

Yeah, that's,

Amir: 7:50

self charging.

Clive: 7:50

yeah. So that's very important because in many parts of the world where there's no sewage treatment, Those parts of the world also lack access to electricity. So there's also huge issue in grid connectivity

Amir: 8:02

Okay, a two meter by three meter, almost looks like a little house. its roof is made of, solar panels. Inside box there's a couple of, of

Clive: 8:12

Yeah. So in, so inside the box. there are two chambers, Chamber number one, is, a reservoir, uh, a circular, yeah. So there's two chambers. The f the first chamber is is a circular container. And in that container, we pump the sewage from a collection reservoir. and in that chamber we reduce the organic matter to a very high degree, and, in that chamber, sewage is, pumped and circulated. The heart of the chamber is the next chamber, which is a rectangular chamber, and in that rectangular chamber, we have a series of hanging sheets. like blinds or curtains, One next to the other. we take the water from the first chamber, and we run it through a series of nozzles And we simply spray or drip the water through these nozzles onto these sheets. So the algae That's, what they grow on.

Amir: 9:06

okay. we looked at the outside. You've taken us inside the first chamber is the separation chamber that then feeds into a treatment chamber.

Clive: 9:16

That's exactly it. That interaction is what causes any remaining, pollution to be removed from the water. And the bottom, we have a collection reservoir. water is clean enough to be, used in agriculture, and it's certainly clean enough to be discharged into the environment and not to be a risk either to the environment or to people's health.

Amir: 9:35

Outstanding. Alright if we look at where we are in the story now, Clive, we started off with the context, how this stuff works, a way to do this is you take a box, put it where there isn't a facility, schools, clinics talk now about scaling this. How does this affect the planet?

Clive: 9:55

if you think about global water scarcity, how are we gonna resolve global water scarcity? If on the one hand we don't have enough water, and on the other the water we do have, we're polluting, The climate is impacting the distribution of water around the planet, and that is exacerbating scarcity. It's not just about treating sewage. It's about reusing sewage once it's treated. And that's the climate aspect. If I can take the sewage, treat it, invest all that millions of dollars in treating it, why just dump it back into a river? If I'm treating it, I should reuse it. And by reusing sewage mostly in agriculture for food production, that is probably the best way to adapt to the climate crisis. And if I can do that, I can be in a much more sustainable position of vis-a-vis, global water scarcity and, climate change.

Amir: 10:40

you have a pilot going on now in South Africa. Can you take us into that?

Clive: 10:44

We are going to be installing a Laguna system and an environmental education center in Mamelodi Township, which is just outside of Pretoria.

Amir: 10:52

How many people now live in Mamelodi?

Clive: 10:54

Mamelodi is part of the city of Tswane which incorporates roughly 3 million people I'll tell you, every single one of those households is may be connected to a sewer grid, but I know where the sewage is going. It's going into the river. Why is that a problem? That's actually, is highlighted the value of Laguna for South Africa. That river is being contaminated by sewage upstream. And people are drinking that water downstream. And that's why there's a Cholera outbreak The mayor is under massive pressure to find a solution to this. You can't just keep dumping the sewage into the river. Nobody should die from cholera.

Amir: 11:25

Give us your best projections, how the company grows.

Clive: 11:29

in five years, we need to be selling upwards of between 10 to 20 units a year for the company to be profitable. For me, the real opportunity in South Africa is real estate. Real estate developers in South Africa have a big problem now because they can't populate their projects if they can't provide basic service to their units. drinking water, electricity, solid waste sewage. You can't rely on the government anymore. Nothing is effective.

Amir: 11:55

It sounds like challenge also. To find partners and

Clive: 11:59

Oh, it's.

Amir: 12:00

scale this up.

Clive: 12:01

We've spoken to people in India, we've spoken to people in Brazil Jordan, everybody wants the solution. Nobody wants to pay for it. This is a challenge in water in general, right? Sewage is something that the government should solve. It's not my problem, it's the government's problem. We are saying this is a localized solution, you have to pay for it, But, you are also benefiting. You're benefiting because you're now getting that water back. And again, that's why the reuse angle is really important from the business perspective. I'm not just treating a nuisance. I'm actually providing you with a productive source of water.

Amir: 12:33

Got it. I feel like we've gotten a point in the story we've started with real high level global view of water and sanitation, waste, water treatment And then we've gone into, through your company and the box and the challenges and how it works and the challenges of finding a partnerships and how those could be solved. And we have examples in South Africa. vision is that once people see this working and it's tested and it's trusted that more and more places will adopt this. It's cheaper, it's easier, it's quick. that sounds like it could take a while, but it's definitely a worthy project. Let's go over the horizon. 5, 10, 15 years. on the optimistic side, what does the world start to look like when Laguna innovation is successfully scaled take us into that chapter.

Clive: 13:27

this is work that takes decades. So we also have to have a little humility. Laguna is not gonna solve the world sanitation problem, but Laguna can chip away at that problem. Let's just take South Africa, right? So today South Africa has less than one third of their wastewater facilities function. So if Laguna were to be an effective player in the South African market, no longer is cholera a major crisis in South Africa, 10 years from now, 15 years from now river systems are cleaner, because Laguna is operating across South Africa. And the risk factor to people has reduced significantly. It's going to be a long journey and we have to be highly committed. I believe in what I'm doing. I believe in the technology. it works, Maybe we will be the Xerox of off grid wastewater treatment.

Amir: 14:16

Xerox I think we might wanna

Clive: 14:18

I.

Amir: 14:18

a different

Clive: 14:19

You're gonna say, I'm gonna Xerox. Xerox. Now is a verb, right?

Amir: 14:23

oh boy. We're showing our age. You wanna be the Uber

Clive: 14:27

you're right. I'm showing my age. I would, okay. I wanna be the Airbnb.

Amir: 14:31

You wanna be the ChatGPT

Clive: 14:32

Yeah. There you go. Yep.

Amir: 14:34

Clive is there anything you feel like I've missed? Is there something that haven't gotten across?

Clive: 14:38

I think we've had a great discussion, we want to expose the sanitation issue. We don't want this thing to be a hidden issue. so long as it remains hidden, it's always going to be a problem. Everybody's talking about climate change. How many people are talking about sanitation, right? If the level of awareness to, sanitation can be matched in climate change, then I think we've made a huge impact.

Amir: 14:57

How do you connect global warming and rising seas to sanitation?

Clive: 15:02

climate impacts water. The hydrological cycle is determined by climate. Today, rainfall is more and more unpredictable around the world because of climate change. Why is that a problem? Because most of the world's food is still grown with rainfall. Food around the world is becoming more problematic because rainfall is becoming more erratic. Laguna can help solve that problem by introducing recycled wastewater, which is a much more predictable source of water at high value, that would improve food security. And by improving food security, you are adapting to a changing climate. It's that connection that people are not seeing at this point.

Amir: 15:41

So let's work on that it's a bit convoluted. I think we can chip it away. So let, me see if I can get this right. Most people when they think of climate change, they think of global warming. when it is hot, it's hotter than it used to be. And when it's colder. There's a rainfall is erratic. This is affecting the vast majority of small holder farmers. People who produce food for themselves, their families, or communities that sell them on the side of the road it's affecting their livelihood and food. And the way Laguna connects to this is that it gives them waste water back that is actually cleaned up and treated for them from their own use let's, connect those

Clive: 16:22

Yeah I suppose what you, what we both try to say Amir it's, about a circular economy approach, right? So if I'm a small holder farmer and I'm growing crops like you said, to feed my farm, but also market and make some income, I'm, actually one of the most vulnerable to climate change because if I'm only dependent on rainfall, that rainfall now is not as predictable as it once was. So my crop yields are less than they once were. How do I, me the farmer, how do I solve that problem? I need water. I need water for irrigation. And rainfall is no longer reliable. So where will I get that water from? At the same time in the community that I live in my sewage is flown into the river and, polluting the river. If I can clean my sewage, I clean the river. And then I can take that treated sewage and pipe it and direct it to my farm a complimentary source of water to rainfall. And in that way I've done that circular economic approach I am building my resilience to more erratic hydrological patterns due to climate change. Maybe still convoluted, I don't know. But

Amir: 17:31

I like that. I think that's I think it's better. you are treating the water and you're cleaning the water and you're reusing the water you're allowing living it feels like a very worthy I'm super happy that you agree to come onto the podcast and talk about this. And wish you just the best of success.

Clive: 17:48

Thank you very much for the opportunity. This kind of experience is exactly the kind of thing that we need, right? We need this exposure we would be successful. If every time somebody flushed the toilet, they would think, okay, it's not just disappearing, it's going somewhere. Somebody has to take responsibility we are at the backend, if you will. we are taking responsibility that action of just flushing the toilet

Amir: 18:10

I like it. Okay. stop there. If we had to put a headline on this story, on this narrative, taking in the full sweep, the climate, the politics, the technology, the um, the water, For me, it's water is life. sanitation is civilization. are places in the world that had wastewater and sanitation that was functioning, now don't, for whatever reason, the effects of climate change, political instability, financial instability, down the line your city, your town that had these things you take them for granted, flush toilet, goes away. It's never a problem. You never think about it. This could happen to you. Thanks for listening to The Dejargonizer for more episodes and ways to connect with me, please visit dejargonizerpod.com. That's dejargonizerpod.com